The Jay Sapir Interview
Budd Hopkins and reporter Jay Sapir personally met with the third man at Chicago’s O’Hare airport on November 12, 1993.
Fact
In 2011, when Carol Rainey was interviewed on the Spectrum Radio Network broadcast, she lied and claimed that Budd Hopkins had never met the third man from the Linda Cortile case. Her provably false claim was absurd in light of the following facts.
1) This meeting between Budd Hopkins, Jay Sapir and the third man was described in detail over the course of an entire chapter in Hopkins' book Witnessed ("Chapter 32 – The Meeting at O'Hare", Pages 367 – 375, Great Britain 1997 Paperback).
2) Carol Rainey was the one who claimed to have edited Witnessed.
3) Carol Rainey personally conducted a video interview with Jay Sapir about his, and Budd Hopkins', meeting with the third man at Chicago’s O’Hare airport on November 12, 1993.
Presented below for empirical examination is the audio recording and transcript of Carol Rainey's lie. Also presented is the video interview recording and transcript she conducted with Jay Sapir about his and Budd's meeting with third Man at Chicago’s O’Hare airport on November 12, 1993. The interview due to its length has been divided up into three downloadable parts.
1) This meeting between Budd Hopkins, Jay Sapir and the third man was described in detail over the course of an entire chapter in Hopkins' book Witnessed ("Chapter 32 – The Meeting at O'Hare", Pages 367 – 375, Great Britain 1997 Paperback).
2) Carol Rainey was the one who claimed to have edited Witnessed.
3) Carol Rainey personally conducted a video interview with Jay Sapir about his, and Budd Hopkins', meeting with the third man at Chicago’s O’Hare airport on November 12, 1993.
Presented below for empirical examination is the audio recording and transcript of Carol Rainey's lie. Also presented is the video interview recording and transcript she conducted with Jay Sapir about his and Budd's meeting with third Man at Chicago’s O’Hare airport on November 12, 1993. The interview due to its length has been divided up into three downloadable parts.
Audio Excerpt #1
Audio Excerpt #1 Transcript
MALE SPEAKER#1: There you go. But whatever, whatever investigation that he had done, uh like in footwork um, the information that he had gotten was it ever backed up anybody else?
CAROL RAINEY: Um depends what you mean I, you know, um. Uh if he actually, if you're asking, if he actually met the Richard, the Dan, the, the two government agents or if he met the third man um no he didn't. He got letters, typed letters from all of those people. He did meet with the um I have the audio recording the pretty remarkable meeting with the woman, he calls the woman on the bridge. And he did meet with her at a restaurant.
CAROL RAINEY: Um depends what you mean I, you know, um. Uh if he actually, if you're asking, if he actually met the Richard, the Dan, the, the two government agents or if he met the third man um no he didn't. He got letters, typed letters from all of those people. He did meet with the um I have the audio recording the pretty remarkable meeting with the woman, he calls the woman on the bridge. And he did meet with her at a restaurant.
Audio Excerpt #1 Download
MP3 Audio Recording of Quote for Download Below:
| 1a.mp3 |
Source
(48:37:02 – 49:30:00)
URL: http://www.spectrumradionetwork.com/Archive/carol-rainey-the-co-creation-of-the-abduction-phenomenon.html
URL: http://www.spectrumradionetwork.com/Archive/carol-rainey-the-co-creation-of-the-abduction-phenomenon.html
The Jay Sapir Video Interview
Part #1
| jsip1.avi |
Part #2
| jspi2.avi |
Part #3
| jspi3.avi |
The Jay Sapir Video Interview Transcript
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: Ten years ago, as a reporter for UPI in Washington D.C., I was a classic skeptic, but I was also a classic reporter, and when I heard Budd Hopkins on the radio and was later introduced to a alleged abductee a light went on inside my head that said these people are telling…(video error)…know it. They have no reason to lie and as a reporter I couldn’t figure out why I would be working on any other story if there was even a scintilla of truth behind what Mr. Hopkins and his alleged abductees were saying.
Carol Rainey: So how did…
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Carol Rainey: …interest?
Jay Sapir: Well I read uh Budd’s books, I read Whitley Strieber’s books I took it upon myself to read all of the literature and then I set about doing independent interviews with a lot of the people mentioned in the books. I uh joined MUFON, the Mutual UFO network, and I made a personal odyssey to a lot of people who said they had this experience. After several years and dozens of interviews, when everyday ordinary people from all walks of life were telling me virtually the same story uh, and, and, and, and, and the details were so chillingly familiar uh and, and they didn’t want their names used, they didn’t want any money. I realised that there really was something here to be pursued and uh, uh I must admit I, I became a little obsessed with it.
Carol Rainey: How long has this been going on?
Jay Sapir: Uh it’s been going on ten years now and uh in those ten years uh I, I, I have interviewed dozens of people who have had this experience uh and I, I, I have always been just, just shaken by their sincerity. Uh sure I’ve met a couple of nutcases and uh, you know, I’m aware there’s a lot of hoaxes and frauds out there.
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: The Linda case uh is extraordinary in that uh there were multiple witnesses. It’s also extraordinary in that the number of people involved, and the central figure herself, would have to be the most extraordinary hoaxsters and liars and actors of all time to have put this together. If, if, it, again, if this is a hoax it’s almost uh, a more improbable than the real thing. There are so many people involved and uh the central character herself uh, has, has no discernible motive to make it up. So of all the cases that I’ve seen uh this one is, is the most compelling for that reason.
Carol Rainey: Mm.
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: Well I’m especially interested in it because several years ago when I independently came to the conclusion that the third man had to be the former secretary general of the UN. I thought that as a public figure he owed the public an explanation, that there was a higher level of accountability when it came to him than anyone else previously who had been involved in this. That it was in effect his job to tell the truth about this. So uh when I confronted him about it at O’hare airport I didn’t expect that he would come out and say oh well, yes you’ve got me now, uh I’m the third man but I thought that somehow in the nature of his denial uh I could discern whether or not he was telling the truth or avoiding the subject and that’s why I confronted him as blatantly and as brazenly as I did.
Carol Rainey: And what was the outcome of that interview? Why don’t you go and start with the beginning uh let me refocus one more time and uh just, just go through if you would, you know, what your expectations were and what the outcome was like that.
Jay Sapir: Well I must say if you were looking at it as theatre of the absurd, it would, it would be quite humorous because I went there with some legitimate questions about the uh status of the former Yugoslavia which was disintegrating rapidly at the time. I also had uh, uh questions about the UN’s role in the uh Persian gulf and to warm him up I asked uh legitimate questions to that effect and got some rather uh interesting answers. And then uh, uh, I changed the subject as best I could, segwayed as gracefully as I could to this whole subject of UFO’s and whether or not uh the UN had any role in, in investigating these claims and what happened from that point on was truly absurd. Uh Perez De Cuellar wouldn’t touch the subject no matter how I phrased it. In, in, in over twenty years as a journalist, and I have seen some great evaders in my time uh, I had never seen anyone go to such lengths to evade and avoid the subject as De Cuellar did when I repeatedly raised the issues of UFO’s in general, and his involvement in particular. He would deftly change the subject to Saddam Hussein. He actually at one point gave me a very interesting story uh which had nothing to do with UFO’s it had more to do with uh…(video error)…(whether the gulf) war was a mistake. In fact he gave something which another reporter I think would have jumped at uh, uh. I now realise that it was a sort of plea bargain. I think what he was doing was throwing me a fish and saying if you want a story uh take this, there really, really was no reason uh for the uh US to in, in, invade Iraq now go away. But I wouldn’t go away, being uh persistent and, and obnoxious I uh spelled it out to him at, at one point even saying Unidentified Flying Objects, UFO’s, what does this meant to you? And he um still wouldn’t touch the subject and I knew right then uh that uh he was uh evading the subject for a reason. At the time though I thought well maybe uh he knows he’s been implicated in this and maybe he thinks I’m the kind of reporter who would just put up a headline story that says uh, uh Perez De Cuellar uh denies involvement with UFO sightings. So I thought well maybe if he’s not the third man but knows he’s been implicated as him he would still be coming on this way. However, subsequently uh having read Mr. Hopkins’ book “Witnessed” and done some more uh investigation on my own I’m now uh thinking uh that there’s no way in the world that he didn’t have intimate knowledge of, of this event. Whether or not it happened to him or someone close to him uh clearly he’s, he, he, he, yeah, uh, you know, I, I, I, I, I’ll bet all the money I have in the bank uh he, he knows about the Linda case.
Carol Rainey: What clues do you have with regards?
Jay Sapir: Well for one thing uh other reporters have asked him about it by now uh and he simply has not responded. And also after going over my notes and the tape of his responses uh it’s just obvious uh that, that he, that he’s avoiding the, the subject and uh…
Carol Rainey: Okay I could say it’s obvious that he’s avoiding the subject…
Jay Sapir: Yeah.
Carol Rainey: But that does that what does that prove?
Jay Sapir: Well it proves one of two things either he’s the third man or he does not want his reputation in any way connected with the UFO uh phenomenon. But uh, you know, if you, if, if, if you read “Witnessed” uh there’s so much more corroborative uh evidence that points to a high level UN diplomat that uh it’s inconceivable to me that he eith, he eith, he either isn’t the third man or, or, or, uh doesn’t know something uh, uh, uh, about this event.
Carol Rainey: Mm hm, mm hm. Now would, would you expect someone in that position to come forward and admit that he knows more than most people do?
Jay Sapir: Certainly not at this point in time and, and certainly not while he’s concerned not only about his reputation, but the reputation of the UN. Certainly he would not come forward. However as a human being I, I would think that at some point in his life for his own peace of mind uh he would either have to come forward publicly or confide in someone and uh I suspect that’s already happened.
Carol Rainey: And who would that confidant be?
Jay Sapir: If I was a religious person I would go to my priest uh if I wasn’t I would go to my family. Uh even if I wasn’t the third man but if people were implicating me in being the third man I would certainly mention it to someone. When you talk to the UN as I did very recently they say it’s a non issue to him. He doesn’t care about it. And to me uh if I were he, and I had even been implicated in it, wrongly, it would certainly not be a, a, a non issue to me.
Carol Rainey: Do you still believe Jay that he has a responsibility to come forward?
Jay Sapir: I do…
Carol Rainey: Mm.
Jay Sapir: …I do. I think at, at, at the time if I remember correctly uh he was still in, in a capacity as uh the Secretary General and I don’t know what he’s doing there, was doing there at the UN that’s more important than letting other citizens of the planet know that we might not be alone. Yeah I do think he has a moral obligation to come forward.
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: Well when you listen to the tape it’s very funny because he, he does speak in an accent, but his uh, uh understanding of English is, you know, it’s quite sophisticated. And if you listen to the tape you will hear me say over and over again UFO’s, Unidentified Flying Objects, Aliens from outer space and you will hear him say over and over again well yes space um that’s an interesting subject in fact the uh UN satellite uh has taken pictures of the buildup of Iraqi troops along the Kuwaiti border, I mean it’s absolutely absurd. It’s absolutely absurd. Nothing, nothing that uh, uh the theatre of the absurd has, has come up with tops this. As, as, as far uh dialogue.
Carol Rainey: You’ve never…
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: I would just make a broad based appeal to anyone sincerely interested in the truth about this matter to just hang their ego on a hook, hang their belief system in the closet, sit down take a deep breath and read Mr. Hopkins’ books, read Strieber’s books, uh read all the literature, speak to some people about it and, and, and, and, and then turn around and, and, and, and have a soul to soul talk with yourself and then see what you think.
Jay Sapir: Ten years ago, as a reporter for UPI in Washington D.C., I was a classic skeptic, but I was also a classic reporter, and when I heard Budd Hopkins on the radio and was later introduced to a alleged abductee a light went on inside my head that said these people are telling…(video error)…know it. They have no reason to lie and as a reporter I couldn’t figure out why I would be working on any other story if there was even a scintilla of truth behind what Mr. Hopkins and his alleged abductees were saying.
Carol Rainey: So how did…
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Carol Rainey: …interest?
Jay Sapir: Well I read uh Budd’s books, I read Whitley Strieber’s books I took it upon myself to read all of the literature and then I set about doing independent interviews with a lot of the people mentioned in the books. I uh joined MUFON, the Mutual UFO network, and I made a personal odyssey to a lot of people who said they had this experience. After several years and dozens of interviews, when everyday ordinary people from all walks of life were telling me virtually the same story uh, and, and, and, and, and the details were so chillingly familiar uh and, and they didn’t want their names used, they didn’t want any money. I realised that there really was something here to be pursued and uh, uh I must admit I, I became a little obsessed with it.
Carol Rainey: How long has this been going on?
Jay Sapir: Uh it’s been going on ten years now and uh in those ten years uh I, I, I have interviewed dozens of people who have had this experience uh and I, I, I have always been just, just shaken by their sincerity. Uh sure I’ve met a couple of nutcases and uh, you know, I’m aware there’s a lot of hoaxes and frauds out there.
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: The Linda case uh is extraordinary in that uh there were multiple witnesses. It’s also extraordinary in that the number of people involved, and the central figure herself, would have to be the most extraordinary hoaxsters and liars and actors of all time to have put this together. If, if, it, again, if this is a hoax it’s almost uh, a more improbable than the real thing. There are so many people involved and uh the central character herself uh, has, has no discernible motive to make it up. So of all the cases that I’ve seen uh this one is, is the most compelling for that reason.
Carol Rainey: Mm.
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: Well I’m especially interested in it because several years ago when I independently came to the conclusion that the third man had to be the former secretary general of the UN. I thought that as a public figure he owed the public an explanation, that there was a higher level of accountability when it came to him than anyone else previously who had been involved in this. That it was in effect his job to tell the truth about this. So uh when I confronted him about it at O’hare airport I didn’t expect that he would come out and say oh well, yes you’ve got me now, uh I’m the third man but I thought that somehow in the nature of his denial uh I could discern whether or not he was telling the truth or avoiding the subject and that’s why I confronted him as blatantly and as brazenly as I did.
Carol Rainey: And what was the outcome of that interview? Why don’t you go and start with the beginning uh let me refocus one more time and uh just, just go through if you would, you know, what your expectations were and what the outcome was like that.
Jay Sapir: Well I must say if you were looking at it as theatre of the absurd, it would, it would be quite humorous because I went there with some legitimate questions about the uh status of the former Yugoslavia which was disintegrating rapidly at the time. I also had uh, uh questions about the UN’s role in the uh Persian gulf and to warm him up I asked uh legitimate questions to that effect and got some rather uh interesting answers. And then uh, uh, I changed the subject as best I could, segwayed as gracefully as I could to this whole subject of UFO’s and whether or not uh the UN had any role in, in investigating these claims and what happened from that point on was truly absurd. Uh Perez De Cuellar wouldn’t touch the subject no matter how I phrased it. In, in, in over twenty years as a journalist, and I have seen some great evaders in my time uh, I had never seen anyone go to such lengths to evade and avoid the subject as De Cuellar did when I repeatedly raised the issues of UFO’s in general, and his involvement in particular. He would deftly change the subject to Saddam Hussein. He actually at one point gave me a very interesting story uh which had nothing to do with UFO’s it had more to do with uh…(video error)…(whether the gulf) war was a mistake. In fact he gave something which another reporter I think would have jumped at uh, uh. I now realise that it was a sort of plea bargain. I think what he was doing was throwing me a fish and saying if you want a story uh take this, there really, really was no reason uh for the uh US to in, in, invade Iraq now go away. But I wouldn’t go away, being uh persistent and, and obnoxious I uh spelled it out to him at, at one point even saying Unidentified Flying Objects, UFO’s, what does this meant to you? And he um still wouldn’t touch the subject and I knew right then uh that uh he was uh evading the subject for a reason. At the time though I thought well maybe uh he knows he’s been implicated in this and maybe he thinks I’m the kind of reporter who would just put up a headline story that says uh, uh Perez De Cuellar uh denies involvement with UFO sightings. So I thought well maybe if he’s not the third man but knows he’s been implicated as him he would still be coming on this way. However, subsequently uh having read Mr. Hopkins’ book “Witnessed” and done some more uh investigation on my own I’m now uh thinking uh that there’s no way in the world that he didn’t have intimate knowledge of, of this event. Whether or not it happened to him or someone close to him uh clearly he’s, he, he, he, yeah, uh, you know, I, I, I, I, I’ll bet all the money I have in the bank uh he, he knows about the Linda case.
Carol Rainey: What clues do you have with regards?
Jay Sapir: Well for one thing uh other reporters have asked him about it by now uh and he simply has not responded. And also after going over my notes and the tape of his responses uh it’s just obvious uh that, that he, that he’s avoiding the, the subject and uh…
Carol Rainey: Okay I could say it’s obvious that he’s avoiding the subject…
Jay Sapir: Yeah.
Carol Rainey: But that does that what does that prove?
Jay Sapir: Well it proves one of two things either he’s the third man or he does not want his reputation in any way connected with the UFO uh phenomenon. But uh, you know, if you, if, if, if you read “Witnessed” uh there’s so much more corroborative uh evidence that points to a high level UN diplomat that uh it’s inconceivable to me that he eith, he eith, he either isn’t the third man or, or, or, uh doesn’t know something uh, uh, uh, about this event.
Carol Rainey: Mm hm, mm hm. Now would, would you expect someone in that position to come forward and admit that he knows more than most people do?
Jay Sapir: Certainly not at this point in time and, and certainly not while he’s concerned not only about his reputation, but the reputation of the UN. Certainly he would not come forward. However as a human being I, I would think that at some point in his life for his own peace of mind uh he would either have to come forward publicly or confide in someone and uh I suspect that’s already happened.
Carol Rainey: And who would that confidant be?
Jay Sapir: If I was a religious person I would go to my priest uh if I wasn’t I would go to my family. Uh even if I wasn’t the third man but if people were implicating me in being the third man I would certainly mention it to someone. When you talk to the UN as I did very recently they say it’s a non issue to him. He doesn’t care about it. And to me uh if I were he, and I had even been implicated in it, wrongly, it would certainly not be a, a, a non issue to me.
Carol Rainey: Do you still believe Jay that he has a responsibility to come forward?
Jay Sapir: I do…
Carol Rainey: Mm.
Jay Sapir: …I do. I think at, at, at the time if I remember correctly uh he was still in, in a capacity as uh the Secretary General and I don’t know what he’s doing there, was doing there at the UN that’s more important than letting other citizens of the planet know that we might not be alone. Yeah I do think he has a moral obligation to come forward.
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: Well when you listen to the tape it’s very funny because he, he does speak in an accent, but his uh, uh understanding of English is, you know, it’s quite sophisticated. And if you listen to the tape you will hear me say over and over again UFO’s, Unidentified Flying Objects, Aliens from outer space and you will hear him say over and over again well yes space um that’s an interesting subject in fact the uh UN satellite uh has taken pictures of the buildup of Iraqi troops along the Kuwaiti border, I mean it’s absolutely absurd. It’s absolutely absurd. Nothing, nothing that uh, uh the theatre of the absurd has, has come up with tops this. As, as, as far uh dialogue.
Carol Rainey: You’ve never…
(Cuts to another video with Jay Sapir)
Jay Sapir: I would just make a broad based appeal to anyone sincerely interested in the truth about this matter to just hang their ego on a hook, hang their belief system in the closet, sit down take a deep breath and read Mr. Hopkins’ books, read Strieber’s books, uh read all the literature, speak to some people about it and, and, and, and, and then turn around and, and, and, and have a soul to soul talk with yourself and then see what you think.
The Jay Sapir Interview Transcript
Sequentially Compiled from the (55:20) Linda Tape Uncut.avi
Fair Use
The Jay Sapir video footage contained in jsip1.avi, jsip2.avi and jsip3.avi has been used here in accordance with the Fair Use doctrine contained within the United States copyright law. It has been used here to report, comment on and factually demonstrate the invalidity of an absurd allegation baselessly levelled against Budd Hopkins, Linda Cortile and Linda Cortile's UFO abduction case by Carol Rainey in her interview with the Spectrum radio network. The purpose and character of the use of the Jay Sapir video footage contained in jsip1.avi, jsip2.avi and jsip3.avi is non-profit education intended to increase public awareness about the validity of the Linda Cortile UFO abduction case as well as providing a free public information source about the case to aid those interested in learning more about it.
URL: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/usc_sec_17_00000107----000-.html
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§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
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